Ignition Leadership Podcast

Episode 6: Frame of Reference- In the Hot Seat

• Jamie Howarth

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In this episode of the Ignition Leadership Podcast, hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth discuss the crucial concept of 'frame of reference' in fire service leadership. They explore how various leadership perspectives shape decisions, emphasize the importance of understanding different viewpoints, and share personal experiences to underscore their points. Jamie and Bob also talk about the significance of effective communication, trust, and the mutual exchange of ideas across different ranks within the fire service. They highlight the growth that comes from hard conversations and emphasize the necessity of adaptability and open-mindedness in evolving with the fire service. Tune in and get insights that you can apply at any stage of your career.

Lawrence:

Welcome to ignition leadership podcast! Leading with fire and building with purpose. All information and opinions are of the hosts and guests and are not affiliated with any organization. Here are your hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth

Jamie Howarth:

welcome listeners. We are your hosts, Jamie Hallworth

Bob Howarth:

and Bob Howarth

Jamie Howarth:

and we do these podcasts,, every couple weeks because we wanna give our listeners a little bit of tidbits to take back to the firehouse and be able to discuss. It's just for thoughtful conversations at the. At the table when they're having dinner or when they are they have some downtime. And I think that is really the goal that we're trying to do. And when I get feedback from our listeners, I feel like we are hitting the mark with that. So we're here to give you just some perspective on what. We see from various leadership perspectives that we've experienced, and you can take the concepts and frame them or put them into your experiences that you've had. So whether you've had one year on the job or you've had 30 years on the job, you should be able to apply the concepts to where you are at in your career.

Bob Howarth:

It's it is just another tool in life's toolbox.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

Every time you get a new tool, it takes a little while to figure out how to use it. That's what we're doing. We're we're trying to give you little tools. Small snippets of those tools and let you figure out how to use it, if it's gonna work for you or not.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. So we did miss a week because we took a much needed adult vacation to Mexico. Yes. Where I do not like the sand on the beach, so we laid by the pool. I also don't like the creatures in the ocean. So we really did relax. We made a. And we made it a point to not do work stuff and things that were related to work because I usually feel like I am. Wasting time. If I'm not being productive, for example, I'm listening to a podcast and if it's not about the fire service or not about leadership, I just feel like, oh man, I could be using my time more productively. And so I really never have downtime from it. And it's funny because when we were there, I was listening to True Crime podcast because that's just something I'm interested in, but I never really listened to because I always think I can use my time more wisely. But then of course in the airport on the way out, we pick up Yankees, ball calves, and I pick up a leadership book, right? You know what? We made it through the whole vacation and leadership books pertain to, to us, even if it's not Spire service specific. And I actually think a lot of those concepts apply to us as well. And we should be more open-minded where we get our information when it comes to leadership.

Bob Howarth:

Just to give everybody a little more perspective, as a retiree it's been almost six years since I retired. The last 10 years of my career was twenty four seven, having a phone attached to me vacations. No vacations, no matter what. It was always available by phone or by email. It took me six years after retirement to go on a vacation and leave my work phone at home and never look at my work email the whole time I was gone. So for those of you that get ready to retire. It takes a while to break the habits.

Jamie Howarth:

I was so surprised that you left the whole phone at home,

Bob Howarth:

the whole phone,

Jamie Howarth:

and I did I did get one text message and a very small thing that I dealt with, which it wasn't a big deal. And I also, I don't wanna leave my people hanging either. I was off for. Almost 20 days. So you know, that's a long time to go out. It's without somebody being able to make decisions. And, the fire department is a 24 7 gig. You can't stop. It, it doesn't stop because you take a vacation. So I really am fortunate in my position that the other chiefs that I work with above me and my peers. Are proactive and knowing when we're on vacation or when we're doing something and they pick up the slack.

Bob Howarth:

So this is gonna be good. Just this little conversation right here is gonna lead us right into what our podcast is about. Yeah, because I know I've heard it when I was in the fire service still. I'm sure that you hear it. You tell somebody you're going on vacation and Well, if you need me, call me. Or if you need me, email me. Oh yeah. Or text me and they say You're on vacation. Why do you even look at that stuff? It's, you look at it from a different way than they do as a firefighter. They may not care whether or not anything happens at work, but they're only responsible for themselves while they're away. You're still responsible for a lot, so it leads us right into what we have to talk about. Yeah, for sure.

Jamie Howarth:

So our topic today, oh, I've been really excited about this one because it has come up quite a bit, both in conversations with people with less ranks than me, and also people with more rank than me. And that shows you how prominent this discussion is. And, and what we're gonna discuss today is a frame of reference and. For when you put that into the fire service, it's the perspective or viewpoint from which leaders and firefighters interpret situations, make decisions, understand each other's actions. The concept is crucial because it shapes how leaders and frontline firefighters perceive policies, challenges, and the realities of the job. And I really think that as you get more I. As you get more responsibility, your frame of reference really does change. As you get more experience, your frame of reference changes. And I noticed this has just really been weighing on me a lot lately. In the position that I'm in now, because I'm sitting in a different seat. When I was a Backstep firefighter some of the rookies that I have on my social media, they post these pictures of. Just sitting in the back, you know, and a video of just going down the road with the breeze blowing. Mm-hmm. And like not a care in the world. And so excited and it just makes me so nostalgic for. I, I just remember the sights, the smells, the feeling of being in the back and yep, I'm just gonna pull a lot and I'm gonna go do all the fun stuff and I don't even have to do a report when I'm finished.

Bob Howarth:

Right. You just, you go back to the station. You laugh, you talk about it. You know, you get a shower and the officer's still sitting in their office writing out the report, doing the paperwork. Yeah.

Jamie Howarth:

And making sure that all of the equipment is put back together, making sure that our safety checks are done. Both with people, making sure that they're getting cleaned up and our hoods exchanged and all that stuff. So a frame of reference of a firefighter is going to be different. Even a rookie firefighter, let's say, than a 10 year firefighter or a 20 year firefighter who has more experience. And it really is the viewpoint from the seat which you sit.

Bob Howarth:

Yes.

Jamie Howarth:

And I just have felt lately the most that I have noticed that in my entire career.

Bob Howarth:

It's not just the seat that you sit in, it's also the people that you answer to. Your frame of reference changes when you're a firefighter answering to a lieutenant and when you're a battalion or division chief answering to an assistant chief. Yeah. And that assistant chief is their leadership. The people that are telling them what to do are responsible for hundreds of thousands of constituents. Yeah. So it, it's not just the seat you sit in, but it's who's actually. Who are you representing when you make those decisions?

Jamie Howarth:

Absolutely. I do think that we all we have a mission statement for a reason, and I do think we all have the same mission. It's just a responsibility of that mission is different depending on what seat you sit in.

Bob Howarth:

Right.

Jamie Howarth:

So I was a frontline supervisor in the front of a fire engine. Our dog is gagging in the background.

Bob Howarth:

He's good. Now,

Jamie Howarth:

I don't know if you can hear that or not, but thanks for coming to the show, Jackson. Yeah, so I, I was, I rode the front seat of a fire engine for well over a decade, and the decisions that I made riding the front seat. For example, I used to go up to the window of the battalion chief all the time. I just love to go up to the window and tell'em stuff that I saw or Hey, I wanna go do this or that. And it was like the worst possible thing to do to the battalion chief. Right

Bob Howarth:

Now that you're sitting in that car, you don't want anybody coming to your window.

Jamie Howarth:

No. Yes. I miss, you, you run the risk of missing critical transmissions. And I just did not know how much that affected them until it was me sitting in the seat. And, you know, now I tell the firefighters that work for me. If it's important, say it on the radio. If it's not important, tell me later because one, if it is important, you need to say it so everybody can hear it. And that way I'm not trying to relay third person information where somebody comes to my window and say, Hey, I saw this on the Charlie side. This is what we have. And then, okay, now I'm taking that information and I'm putting it out on the radio and I may have missed some stuff because I have a lot of stuff going on. So my frame of reference as a battalion chief, I think this is the biggest frame of reference that has changed for me. And I also think it has given me a significant, a significant amount of respect for the people that I answer to. And I wanna make sure that the people that I'm leading. Understand the why behind what I'm doing. I wanna make sure that they understand, you're not gonna see everything that I see because you're not seeing it from my vantage point.

Bob Howarth:

Right.

Jamie Howarth:

And that's really hard because you have to get them to trust you in those situations that you're making these decisions. And at this point in time, I may not be able to tell you the why behind it. You have to go with it anyway and trust that there's a bigger picture.

Bob Howarth:

Right? Trust that there is a reason for what you're doing. It's not just because, well, I'm the chief and that's what I want to do,

Jamie Howarth:

right?

Bob Howarth:

I'm the chief and that's what I wanna do. Gets people in trouble.

Jamie Howarth:

Well, you know, when you're a firefighter, you do think like this, Lieutenant, this is such a dumb roll. I can't believe they're making us, do you know X, Y, and Z? Insert whatever here. And that lieutenant's like, well, yes, I am making you pull the lines every single shift because it's important that we can pull these lines efficiently. And the firefighters like, yeah, you know, I'm good at it, it's fine. And this is just one example, you know, where they just, I feel like as you get more responsibility, the more you understand the whole picture.

Bob Howarth:

Right. And I also think that. It is a two way street because there are times when the perspective of the lower ranking individual can also be important to the higher ranking individual. For example, it, a lot of it has to do with training experience. Mm-hmm. I distinctly remember a call many years ago where a group of people were allegedly exposed to a chemical. They were having these reactions to the chemical. I was on the hazmat team at the time. We went to the hospital. We did a lot of testing, we did a lot of interviews, and we came to find out that it really was not a chemical, it was a heat related illness that everyone was suffering from and drinking from the same water was causing people to be sick. Hmm. And the division chief at the time said, well, let's just make everybody comfortable and decon them. So that they feel like we did something. And I told the division chief, I think that's a really bad idea. You have people that have gone to multiple hospitals and if we decon and somebody else doesn't, then we're gonna create a huge mess because the media's looking at this, everybody's there. So let's just do what's right and not do anything. Just say what it was. Say that it's a heat related injury. Say that this is the cause of it and that there's no chemicals involved in it, and go home. After he thought about it, looking at it from the way I was looking at it, he agreed. And that's exactly what we did. So in that case, I had a different lens than he did because of my training and knowing what was gonna happen.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. And the trust has to go, it does have to go both ways. Absolutely. Of course. And I think that's why you as an officer or you as a leader, period. Have to get out there and know your people,

Bob Howarth:

right.

Jamie Howarth:

This is where it becomes a challenge is for me, when I was a lieutenant, I had five people that I was in charge of that were on my shift that I saw every fourth day, and I got to know them extremely well. And then becoming a captain, I still knew my shift really well. But then introduced with these other shifts that I was in charge of, and it was not as easy to get to know them as well because they were not on the same shift.

Bob Howarth:

Right.

Jamie Howarth:

And now I have. 45 people that I supervise, and there is no way that I'm gonna be able to know all of those people intimately. There's just not enough time in the day. And if you think about it, division chief has an entire shift of people. The assistant chief has a thousand people, right? And, and the way that you can go about. Learning those people is, is truly through the chain of command. Because as the battalion chief, I get to know my officers intimately and I get to understand them and I get to explain to them the why, and then they are responsible. For sharing that frame of reference with their firefighters and the people that are under their command. But if I, as a battalion chief, tried to do that with every person under my command, there's just no way. Yeah. You don't

Bob Howarth:

have time to do it with everybody and

Jamie Howarth:

it's ineffective. You know, I'm just not with them all the time. I do think it is important that. I'm involved with their training and that I'm there. They see my face and I do have interactions with them, but it's not the same level of interaction as it is with my officers.

Bob Howarth:

And I think it's also important that you have, and again, you said it comes through the chain of command. Yeah, it goes both up and down in the chain of command where that officer in the station who has a crew of, let's just say six people. That officer knows those six people pretty well. They know their experience, they know their history. They know a lot about them. Yeah. And maybe one person has a unique experience. Maybe you know, just spit balling off the top of my head. Maybe one person at one time was a heavy equipment mechanic and worked on a lot of hydraulics. Yeah. Well, you're gonna know that. And then. You're gonna say as the lieutenant to the chief when he comes in, Hey, did you know, you know Joe over there? He used to work on heavy equipment. He knows all that. The battalion chief will remember that, and then the battalion chief might even say something. And on that day, when you have that one call where they're caught in something and that person speaks up and says, you're not gonna want to do that, you're gonna want to do it this way. Yeah. In your mind you're gonna go, why?

Jamie Howarth:

That's

Bob Howarth:

you asking why, and it's, it's a smart thing to do.

Jamie Howarth:

And even, even when you brought in that lens. And you may not know all of those things. I am relying on the officer to know their people well. Right. And my shift commander is relying on me to know my officers well and to know what their strengths and weaknesses are to ensure that we are operating effectively and, and we're operating efficiently on the fire ground. And I do think it is important that we focus on. Being able to tell the why to avoid some of that miscommunication and, and one of the challenges in the fire service and in leadership in general is that you have that frame of reference. And let's say the firefighter rank or the officer rank, they almost feel detached from you with day-to-day decision making.

Bob Howarth:

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Howarth:

Because you have to go make those decisions and it, it kind of breaks, it, it causes like a break or a, a stress in the relationship with the officer or the firefighters. Because a lot of leaders are not circling back around to the why that they made the decisions and trying to be able to show it from their vantage point.

Bob Howarth:

Right.

Jamie Howarth:

And there is, I'm a firm believer there is a time and a place for this because the fire ground is not the time to be asking me, well why am I throwing the ladder here? Right? That's the time, unless it's a safety issue, to follow the chain of command to ensure that the command and control is, is effective. And to be sure that we are carrying out the job well.

Bob Howarth:

The why is always important.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

When you get the why may not be as important.

Jamie Howarth:

Yes. So this is what has changed for me, and this is why I think it's such a, a huge difference. It's just, it, it just clicks so much for me lately, I feel like in the battalion chief level is when my superiors do make a decision. I don't understand why I really try to put myself in their shoes and say, okay, you know, you've made decisions where people may not understood why you've made them at that level. However, I have to trust that they are making the decision based on information that they have at the time that I may not be privy to.

Bob Howarth:

Right.

Jamie Howarth:

And that's fine, but you have to build that relationship to ensure that trust goes both ways. And I can tell you one that did get a little mixed up when it came to staffing. I don't like to put two new rookies on a, on an ambulance together. I would prefer that somebody who has cleared their rookie book is, is on the ambulance with them, has a little bit of experience. I just seen what happens sometimes when you put two rookies on an ambulance together with no supervision and it's no fault of their own. You know, they

Bob Howarth:

don't, they don't have the decision making experience yet.

Jamie Howarth:

Right. And they just don't have the experience. Period. Even if they had previous experience, that's helpful. But like in our jurisdiction, they lack the knowledge of the hospitals and, and those things transport times. Yeah. And it gets'em in trouble,

Bob Howarth:

right? It does.

Jamie Howarth:

So I did have an officer who questioned. Why I didn't put the two on the piece of apparatus together and the answer that I got back was, or, or that I got from them was, well, I see other people doing it right. And I'm like, okay. I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel that it is in the best interest. I think that it increases our chance of having NBCs and collisions. I think that it can cause issues or protocol and. I do, you know, I'm able to do staffing to avoid it. That's what I'm gonna do.

Bob Howarth:

But simple and effective of, well, I see other people do it well, what time do you get to work? You get to work at six o'clock. Well, I see other people that get here at six 30. Why don't you do that? And it, it, it is not, it's what's convenient for them sometimes. But when you explain the why they have to do that 180 and stand in your shoes and look at it.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. But it's also my job. To the best of my ability, give them the why, especially in that situation, because that's not emergent. It's not emergency. Yeah. It's not an emergent situation. You can

Bob Howarth:

give'em the why.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. So it's super easy to say, this is the reason why, you know, we have an increased risk of. Of brand new drivers having motor vehicle collisions, we have an increased risk of, you know, protocol violations and they, it's just more comfortable for them to have somebody that has more experience with them when they don't have a supervisor with them.

Bob Howarth:

So I'll tell you something that I found to be very effective over the years. When you have that situation, you give them the why, what you don't just tell them the why. You ask them questions to show them that they already know the why and let them work through it. Yeah. As you're doing that, that's very effective for another person, like simply saying something like, well, do you think there's more accidents with two rookies or with a rookie and an experienced person? That officer is gonna know, well, there's more with two rookies. They've just in their head said, okay, I'm starting to see her. Why?

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. And being able to, the other thing is being able to accept the answer even when you don't like it. Yeah. And that is a frame of reference also that comes along with leadership. You know, when stuff gets implemented. There are times that I don't immediately know the why behind it. We, I feel like especially operationally, we have training bulletins that come out that really explain why we do things, and I think it's so helpful and, and supporting me so that I can support my officers to put into play what we should be doing. But it, it is important that I'm like, okay, I, I think I understand it. I'm not a hundred percent sure. But I'm gonna do the best I can to implement it. And when the time is right, I'll, you know, I'll call my shift commander. I call'em all the time. Like, Hey, what is, what is the scenario behind this? The other thing I feel like people should understand is that it is easier to make a decision or to see a decision when the weight of that decision is not on your shoulders.

Bob Howarth:

Correct.

Jamie Howarth:

And, you know, they say, well, that's an easy fix. You can just do this. It's not an easy fix because you have to consider, like you said, constituents, you have to consider the public from the battalion level. For me, I have to consider other officers. I have to consider the volunteers. I have to consider mutual aid. I have to consider all of these things. When I make my decision, the weight of that decision is on me. And as a firefighter, you may not see it from that perspective because you haven't experienced the weight of that on your shoulders,

Bob Howarth:

and you may not even understand that. There may be another department close to you that is doing something similar to what you're doing, but maybe the people see it as better and when they see it as better and you try to make a change, then they go, well, why aren't you doing it like they're doing it because they seem to be doing it better. Perfect example right now is there is a local department that is. Very heavy into the electric vehicles. At some point that Tide could turn for other departments to say, well, why are you still buying gasoline powered equipment? That other department is buying electric equipment, electric power equipment, and. The person at the firefighter level that's making a decision we should change from explorers to expeditions doesn't see the other ramifications that are happening. Right. Doesn't hear the calls to the county executive's office. Right. You know, doesn't hear the person that stands up at the council meeting and says, you're ruining the environment. Whether they're right or not, they don't see that.

Jamie Howarth:

And there has to be a balance with the decision making process, and I feel that is why it's so important that we're able to respect the frame of reference and we also have to bridge the gap when it comes to that. For example, when. When somebody has made a mistake, let's say a new firefighter, a new officer has made a mistake. Heck, a new battalion chief has made a mistake, right? And you go to discuss it with them. You cannot discuss it with them, with your years of experience, right? And with your frame of reference, because they don't have that. And it is important as leaders that you not only, you know that you're going well, you know, you don't understand because you don't have the weight of the world on your shoulders. But you also have to understand that from their perspective as a new driver, a new officer, that they do feel like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders, and we need to take a step back and go, okay, they did make a mistake, but they're also brand new. It was their first fire. What, what mistakes did you make on your first fire? And not just grill them and, and talk down to them, especially because. They wouldn't have done what a 20 year firefighter or driver would've done. Well, they're not a 20 year driver

Bob Howarth:

and you weigh their mistake. Also,

Jamie Howarth:

of course,

Bob Howarth:

if their mistake is something that didn't have anything to do with the outcome, yes, you can treat that a little bit differently then a mistake that may affect the outcome.

Jamie Howarth:

Absolutely. Safety is, yeah,

Bob Howarth:

is

Jamie Howarth:

a high

Bob Howarth:

priority. Not just safety though, even. Even if it's not something that was unsafe, but just affected the outcome. Yeah. That's still a, an important thing to, to talk to them about and give them the why. And you, you give them the why with your experience, but you don't hold them to the same level as your

Jamie Howarth:

experience. Yes. And you expect them to perform at the, at the level or at at the bar that we have set. For officers, for battalion chiefs, you expect them to meet the minimum standard of that when they are new. That is what you should expect of them is the minimum standard. And then as they grow, you grow with them. But you still have to have those hard conversations with them and people have to have hard conversations with me. You know, just as a circular thing that happens, I know that when you, I'm sure when you get up into the higher levels the chief has to have a hard conversation with county executives, right. Or with constituents or at those council meetings. I have never been in that seat. It looks grueling to me. I don't think that's for me. But I do think that it's important that the leadership is able to take that on and not shy away from it. And I do feel, at least in my organization, I feel like we do a good job of. Of trying to work towards that frame of reference and we are able to show up to work and we're able to provide that service to the community members. And we try to do that 360 view of ourselves and of the people that work for us or with us.

Bob Howarth:

And you know, it was interesting you and I both heard somebody speaking a couple weeks ago, a couple days ago. In reference to a small department that they really needed a technical rescue team. That was the mm-hmm. Oh yeah. That was the view that this firefighter had. We really need a technical rescue team. Right? We need a technical rescue team. Well, how many stations did you have? You had two. Well, if you have a technical rescue team with two stations, who's gonna do all the other stuff while you're a technical rescue? And you have to consider when they bring that to their administration and their administration says, no. We're not putting that money out, we're not doing the training for that. We're not doing this because there are local places that can help us with that. Right? There are all of these and all that a firefighter sometimes sees is, I want to make it better.

Jamie Howarth:

Right?

Bob Howarth:

But it's better at that level. It's not better at an upper level.

Jamie Howarth:

Right? And, and sometimes we. Are not able to see the priorities that have been set at those higher levels. You know, that's one thing I love about the fire department. We are, most of us are go-getters.

Bob Howarth:

Yeah.

Jamie Howarth:

And we do wanna change the world and we wanna make it a better place, and we wanna change a culture, and we wanna move the fire service forward. And it can get frustrating when you are faced with what you consider adversity from your seat. Right. Well man, I, this is a really good idea and I can't believe that they're not doing it. Not recognizing the cost behind it or, you know, it's also from your, it's almost like your narrow, your narrow framed, right? Mm-hmm. You're not able to see that bigger picture because for example, I'm a paramedic, so I see things as a paramedic from a paramedic point of view, and we do get tunnel vision when it comes to that. And so I think, well, we really need this new whatever. And the department goes, I mean, really in the grand scheme of things, we run a hundred thousand calls a year. We probably would use that tool maybe 50 times a year, maybe even way less than that. And then they have to weigh the, the cost versus the benefit of it. Maybe it's worth getting it for 50 times a year, right? Maybe it's worth having it for one time of year.

Bob Howarth:

It may be worth it for public perception. It may be worth it for the amount of money you save. It may be worth it for what you protect, remember?

Jamie Howarth:

Yes, that too.

Bob Howarth:

What's the mission? The mission is to protect life and property.

Jamie Howarth:

Right?

Bob Howarth:

Okay. So protecting life and protecting property that has to be weighed in when you make these decisions. And I don't wanna buy X tool because it's not gonna do anything to protect any more lives. It, it only changes the way we do something. Well, they might not wanna spend that money on that to make. Additional or spend additional money on things that preserve property or preserve Yeah.

Jamie Howarth:

Well, yeah. That are higher priority. And that is quite the balance. And I do think that is something that captains even see, especially in volunteer crew stations because the volunteers do have additional money that they can use, and together collaboratively, they have to work to figure out what is in the best interest of the station and how they spend that money. So the captains, at least in my organization, they do get to see that perspective and have some buy-in with that to learn the process of seeing the bigger picture. Because now in a volunteer crew station, you have to consider the volunteers, right?

Bob Howarth:

And

Jamie Howarth:

it's important that they are involved and included, and that our process is. Is made for them as well, and I can tell you one thing that I am guilty of is, and I try so hard with, with training and I really need to get better at this. Like this is a fault that I can see of myself. You know, we do, I, I do training every shift. Mm-hmm. We, my, my battalion does training every shift. It's not always battalion level training, but there is something on our training schedule that we all do. We all do the same thing unless there's, there's something specific that a station has to work on that's separate from whatever we're doing that day. And oftentimes I fail to make the time of the training in the evening time when it's best suited for the volunteers. Sure. That's something I know. This is just an example that I have to start to improve on and really put that into consideration because from my viewpoint, they are a part of the organization. They need to be included in it, and that has to be a part of my decision making process. But a lieutenant or a firefighter may not see that and be like, oh, whatever. Like, we're here, we're doing the training that, you know, we'll have it at 10 o'clock in the morning'cause that's what most is most convenient for us. But does that really grow my battalion? As a whole with, with volunteer leadership and responsiveness.

Bob Howarth:

So it's also if you are going to criticize the volunteers, and we all know that there's a lot of criticism about volunteers. You can see Facebook pages about it. You can see social media about it, all of that. If you're going to criticize the volunteers before you do that, you have to give them the equal opportunity. That, and you're seeing that and, and you didn't see that from the same that you had before, and now you're seeing. Maybe I need to make training at a different time. Yeah. So that we can,

Jamie Howarth:

well, at my other levels it was just not a consideration'cause I wasn't responsible for it. So as a lieutenant, I wasn't responsible for that. So I'm like, yeah, whatever. We'll have 10 o'clock in the morning. But you know, even at the station level, we have a lot of station level trainings.

Bob Howarth:

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Howarth:

The lieutenant and the captain, they do have control over that, where they can change the time. Sure. And that is just taking into consideration. And the firefighter goes, I don't wanna do this after dinner. Like, who wants to do training after dinner? Nobody. Right. You know, and then that's when it's important that the captain communicates with them and says, look, you know, we are a combination department. We're a com combination station, and we need to put the effort forward to include the volunteers and ensure that they're operating at the same level we are. We have to provide that opportunity to them and. You know, as you grow in the ranks and or experience, right? Because you don't necessarily have to have a rank. To be a leader, you, you just don't. And you know, my firefighters are leaders in the station, especially my senior firefighters. And from their frame of reference, they may see things differently that they can offer feedback for. And one of the most important things, and it's a big breakdown in the fire service, is the communication that goes back and forth. Up and down the chain and, and with the community and with volunteers and within the station, within the battalion, is that if you have that breakdown of communication, it's really gonna cause a rift.

Bob Howarth:

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Howarth:

Because one, they can't see it from their frame of reference, and two, you are not communicating with them as to why you're doing it.

Bob Howarth:

And they also have to have a different frame of reference than they had 20, 30, 40 years ago. Yes. You know, I started. A volunteer station 35 years ago, and that volunteer station was very community based. It was, their frame of reference was what's right for our community. Yeah. And as things evolved now, especially with a VL. Their community is now anywhere in the county because they could be getting fuel, they could be doing something, and all of a sudden they're no longer in their community because they're closer. Right. And they have to change their frame of reference. That it's not just about your area, it's now about a much broader area.

Jamie Howarth:

Yes. And just the evolution of the fire service period. You know, from. I've been in the fire service career and volunteer almost 25 years, and so much has changed in that 25 years, and I do believe that your frame of reference has to change. With the times. Yes. And with science, I'm a big fan of science. I'm a big fan of learning from the fire services, mistakes from line of duty deaths. I think all of that stuff is important that we grow and move forward. But if we choose to ignore it and we choose not to bring that into our frame it's just, it's going to set us back instead of moving us forward.

Bob Howarth:

So. You just said you have to evolve with times, with the change, with the science, and I completely 100% agree and it's very important that as firefighters, as emergency personnel, we also evolved, the police department had to do it with bulletproof vests. They had to evolve. A lot of people wouldn't wear'em. We don't need that. Put'em now. Nobody would go out without it. Yeah, the fire service. How many times have you heard the statement? Well, if we put sprinklers in everything, we'll be outta business.

Jamie Howarth:

Yes.

Bob Howarth:

So, and I'm gonna use this department's name because they've said this in the media and everything. Prince George's County Fire Department has had sprinklers longer than anybody in the state of Maryland. And their fire duty is still as high or higher than almost everywhere else.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

It doesn't put you out of business, but it does save lives, and that's your mission. Right. So people have to evolve with that.

Jamie Howarth:

Agreed. I do think that we have to remember what we're here for. Mm-hmm. And then we have to trust the process. And as leaders, we have to do our due diligence to ensure that we recognize. The level of experience that people have, ensuring that we are communicating at what we can communicate and what we can't communicate. Hopefully you've been communicating enough that they trust you when you can't communicate stuff with them. When there is something that has come up that is that has to remain confidential and, you know, you just say, look, I, I can't give you all the details. You just have to trust me on this one. And they trust you. And, you know, I, there are decisions made every day. I get them in my email or I, I get various things that change and sometimes I, I don't fully understand them right in that moment. Mm-hmm. But I trust the people making those decisions. Probably have more information than I do. I have to trust that process, and that's something that I wanna challenge, challenge the fire service and challenge our listeners is the next time you, you have a decision that's made that you don't understand or you think that it's stupid, just consider that they have more information than you do, and they are making a decision that is broader based and that has the priorities, that's in the best interest of those that they are responsible for.

Bob Howarth:

Here's the biggest takeaway I want to have everybody understand. No matter your rank, no matter your position, no matter your importance, no matter anything, the view from your eyes is not the same as the view from the person next to you, right? And you have to think about what that person is thinking is using for a reference is experienced with. And don't just automatically dismiss another person's view because it's not the same view as yours. Listen, take a couple minutes and listen, and I challenge our listeners to think about that. And if you think that anybody is seeing it the exact same way as you do, you need to go and look at things like the nine 11 award. Where they asked a thousand people or however many it was. Oh yeah. What color was the sky on nine 11. And there are how many different colors of blue?

Jamie Howarth:

I think it's like 2200 and some. Yeah. From all of the

Bob Howarth:

Yeah. Those that

Jamie Howarth:

perished.

Bob Howarth:

Everybody saw a different color blue.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

So it was the same sky, but it was a different view.

Jamie Howarth:

Absolutely.

Bob Howarth:

So that, that's what I challenge our listeners to is take a couple minutes.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

Look the other person in the eye. Think about what they're doing. Try to stay it from their shoes. It'll help you in the long run

Jamie Howarth:

and have a hard conversation. Yeah. Hard conversations is when growth happens. Yep. And it sucks. I'm on the business end of'em, but I just know, you know, I think to myself. Okay. This is where the growth happens. You just have to deal with it. You have to suck it up, you have to face it, and you have to have some humility. Yeah. And understanding that you don't know everything, and you have to trust the people that are in the position to make those decisions from every rank.

Bob Howarth:

And it goes a long way for you to say, I was wrong when you say that. It's very important when you're wrong. Yeah. Say you're wrong.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah.

Bob Howarth:

Have that humility and that ability to do that.

Jamie Howarth:

And if you don't know why you were wrong, because I, I will tell you, and I know we're gonna wrap this up, sometimes I don't know what, what I did that was wrong,

Bob Howarth:

right?

Jamie Howarth:

And it has to be pointed out to me.

Bob Howarth:

But once it's pointed out to you and you say it from their shoes, most of the time you go, Ooh. I shouldn't have done that one. Well, yeah. That's,

Jamie Howarth:

that is where you have a little bit more experience than I do, and I'm gonna take your experience and I'm gonna learn from it. Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It's,

Bob Howarth:

It can be tricky.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. But, and people have to have open minds, open ears and open hearts.

Bob Howarth:

Yep.

Jamie Howarth:

So, I think that's it for today. Thank you for tuning in. We did miss one of our episodes, but we were on a much needed. Relaxation vacation. I'm actually happy to be back. I'm excited to go to work tomorrow'cause it's been a while since I've been there. So I'm looking forward to seeing the guys and getting back into training. I have Italian level training tomorrow, so, I'm excited to get back into it.

Bob Howarth:

Yeah, it's, it's nice to be back but it was really nice to be on vacation. It was.

Jamie Howarth:

Yeah. Alright, well we will see you in a couple Tuesdays from now. Just go out. Take some information, sit back and have thoughtful conversations at the firehouse, and just remember to have an open mind and have those hard conversations.

Bob Howarth:

Take care everybody.