Ignition Leadership Podcast
Join hosts, veteran firefighters and leadership coaches, as they engage with experts, explore successful strategies, and share inspiring stories from the frontlines.
Ignition Leadership Podcast
Episode 4: From Boots to Bunkers: Evolving Traditions in Firefighting Culture
Hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth lead a discussion the differences between tradition and culture in the fire service. They highlight how tradition includes core values like pride, duty, and honor, whereas culture pertains to behaviors and practices that evolve over time. The episode covers examples such as the evolution from three-quarter boots to modern bunker gear and the shift from command-driven firefighting to protocol-based (SOG) approaches. They emphasize the importance of adapting to changes in safety equipment, firefighting tactics, and training, all while preserving the positive traditions of the fire service. The discussion also touches on the importance of inclusive and effective training practices, the significance of multi-generational involvement, and the resistance to change within the fire service community.
Welcome to ignition leadership podcast! Leading with fire and building with purpose. All information and opinions are of the hosts and guests and are not affiliated with any organization. Here are your hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth.
Jamie Howarth:This is your host, Jamie Howarth.
Bob Howarth:This is Bob Howarth.
Jamie Howarth:Uh, Kendall could not be with us today because he's trying to work out some schedule stuff at work. Um, but we're excited to be here. We are a couple minutes or a couple days late because I worked. 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, 24 back on. Yeah, so, um, we just weren't available for the Tuesday part of it. We are excited to be here. We are going to be talking about tradition versus culture today. I've actually gotten really good feedback about the podcast. I looked at some of our stats and I wanted to share a couple stats with our listeners. First and foremost, thank you so much for the feedback. We really, we really appreciate it when people reach out to us or give us suggestions for things that they want to hear. We have received feedback that people, especially newer officers, don't have this These topics really talked about or explained in their OJT process.
Bob Howarth:Well, I think some of that's going to come out in tradition and culture of why that doesn't occur.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on that. Uh, if you were tuning into our YouTube channel instead, uh, we've also had people ask if we were recording in different rooms. We do not record in different rooms. We usually sit at this table together. It's just Bob is on his video and I'm on my video. And then Kendall is in a completely different state. He's in the Carolinas. So, um, we thought today that we would try to give you a video that is the two of us together in the same frame. Um, but yes, we, we do sit together and we just thought it would be easier for the video process for us to be separate. Yeah, I
Bob Howarth:think it's much easier when we're sitting here together talking to each
Jamie Howarth:other instead of the screen. I'm trying to talk to the screen a little bit. Anyway, so our stats have, uh, have been really interesting. The whole reason that we started Ignition Leadership Podcast is because we wanted to reach people. I feel like I have 25 years of experience with my volunteer experience, 21 career, and you have
Bob Howarth:a lot,
Jamie Howarth:a lot, yes,
Bob Howarth:uh, 40,
Jamie Howarth:40 years, yeah, and Kendall also has almost 20, like, he's like, with his volunteer service, and he's up there quite a bit too. Yeah. So between the two of us. That's a lot of years of service. Absolutely. I also think we've done a lot of trial and error. Things we've learned along the way for the same reasons that we're doing this podcast, I think, is the same reason we have a lot of listeners that we do, because we didn't have guidance on a lot of these things. The understanding of the why, um, how to handle different situations, and the purpose, I feel, of this podcast Give some tools or some nuggets for our listeners, and then they go back and they have thought provoking discussions with other officers or with their crew, and they discuss some of the things that they've either experienced or the way that they could change their mindset going forward.
Bob Howarth:Right.
Jamie Howarth:And that's something I think is really, that's why we're here.
Bob Howarth:Yeah, and I think that When you really get into this, there can be some very controversial, um, cultures, traditions, whichever one you want to say, you can find controversial things in both. It's not designed to just be controversial. It's designed to cause you to think and ask yourself, do we need to change it? Is it right? Is it wrong? What are we doing? It's, it's question provoking, not just trying to be controversial.
Jamie Howarth:And listen, we don't have all the answers,
Bob Howarth:right?
Jamie Howarth:Uh, I learned something new every single shift. I think that that's the way that it should always be. We should always be learning and growing. And especially in the battalion chief level, I have found myself, myself questioning a lot of these things as far as What is a cultural thing versus a traditional thing? What are the way that people see things from their scope or from their lens? And having come up through the ranks, I feel like I've just seen it from so many different sides, right? And you have done a lot of different bureaus in your career where you've seen it from operations and information management and FIV, which is fire investigations. It's just a completely different lens. I was a training. Kendall has a lot of training, um, to see things differently and to try and understand it from different perspectives.
Bob Howarth:Well, it's also not just the different bureaus, but my experience comes from volunteer career and then also the police academy. Went through the police academy at 41 years old. It was rough.
Jamie Howarth:Are we going to tell everybody what our ages are?? They
Bob Howarth:can figure it out. But I went through it 41 years old and it was rough, but there was a lot of cultural and traditional things in the police academy that some worse, some better than the fire academy. So having that perspective of it is a good, it's something else that we can discuss a little bit.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, I think that's why we're here. That's why we're doing this together. Right. Because we have those different perspectives. And again, I know that not everybody is going to agree with our views on things. I don't agree with everybody's view on things either. But it's just to put it out there for people to discuss it. Um, so anyway, back to our stats. We have reached a hundred cities and four countries with this podcast. And that is just mind blowing to me.
Bob Howarth:Not bad considering we've only done three.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, we're across the United States. Canada, Ireland, and Sweden. Um, I think it's really interesting like how we've been able to reach those different areas. I think LinkedIn has something to do with it.
Bob Howarth:Yeah, I do too. It's um, I'm surprised that we haven't hit like England or Germany or France. I would have thought then before Sweden. Yeah, but great. Yeah,
Jamie Howarth:yeah. Maybe somebody from Sweden can reach out to us and we can learn a little bit about their culture, the fire service. That would be amazing, right? Um, so all right, we're going to get into it. We're going to be talking about Tradition versus culture today, what we believe the differences are, and it's just to make you aware of really what the definition of the two are and how we should not be using tradition as an excuse for poor behavior. I think that's really an important aspect of it because I feel like often we are mixing the two up and it's really easy to do when you listen to what the definitions are and we should be moving the culture forward but with the intent of preserving the tradition of the fire service. Right. I think where, where we came from in our roots is super important to where we're going but we still have to evolve.
Bob Howarth:So it is important to preserve the the fire service with tradition. But I think that it Escapes a lot of people that they look back and say, well, it's a tradition to do this, or it's a tradition to do that, but they only talk about the traditions that were positive. There was a lot of traditions back then that turned out to not work or be negative, and those are traditions that you don't want to necessarily continue on or preserve, and that happens a lot.
Jamie Howarth:Well, I hate to say it, but usually when it comes to negative behavior, It's usually a cultural thing and not a beha and not a traditional thing.
Bob Howarth:It, the behavior is, but the, the actual, what happens is the tradition, the culture is the behavior that allows it or keeps it going. Here's an example. If we were preserving tradition, we'd still be wearing three quarter boots. That was tradition for years. That was tradition. We went to bunker pants and now if you told people we were gonna wear three quarter boots, they'd be like, are you crazy?
Jamie Howarth:Yes, we're going to get into that because I want to start with that exact thing as that as an example. So I do want to read what a culture in our case, as we've discussed in a previous episode, metaculture, right? There's a bunch of different backgrounds coming together and creating our own culture and the fire service, and then tradition. Based on that. So culture or a meta culture in our, in our organization and in the fire, the American Fire Service. it's defined as common beliefs, values and social interactions within a group. And those three words are the words that I want to drive home with our, with our listeners. Beliefs. Values in social interactions for tradition. Tradition is passed down for generations, usually involves core values such as pride, duty, honor, and is related to an event or practice. Now, for me, tradition is the definition of the fire service when it comes to pride, duty and honor. Those are things that we, those are three things that we hold in very high regard we do what we do because of pride because of honor and because of that, um, that feeling of duty to serve others. And that is actually what I feel brings a lot of us together that creates that metaculture. We all start with that. With that drive to go out and do big things and to make a difference. And I joke about it getting pulled over as a reason why I started in the fire department, but really deep down inside. I had wanted to be a police officer since I was in kindergarten and it still has the same basis, right? You still have that pride, that duty, that honor, um, to want to serve people. You have to have that, uh, serviceship in order to, to get into a job like this at some level,
Bob Howarth:right? You have to have that serviceship, but you also are very much influenced by. The I'm trying to think of the word.
Jamie Howarth:I don't even know if service. You just
Bob Howarth:made it up. It's a word now. It's a word now, but you have to also take into the fact. I didn't know anything about whether or not I wanted to help other people or do things like that. When I was 6 years old, but I absolutely knew that when the local volunteer fire department came to the bridge at the bottom of my driveway and started drafting water, it was the coolest thing I could watch. And that's what started. And then as I learned more, it became, Hey, I, I do want to help people. And this is a great way to do it.
Jamie Howarth:They were drafting water at the end of your driveway, and you just thought that was the coolest thing in the world.
Bob Howarth:Right. They came there for training and that's where they would train to draft. And I would be at my house, which sat up on a hill and I would hear the fire engines pull up down there. And I would be like, Oh, this is going to be the greatest day. And I would take off on a big wheel right at the bottom of the driveway and sit there and watch those guys and they were all very friendly. They all let me. You know, touch and help and move hoses and things like that. I wasn't really doing anything, but I thought I was the greatest thing going.
Jamie Howarth:Okay, so first of all, I want to know, and it sounds like they talk to you and they let you participate. Absolutely. And what you're saying to me is you really found a sense of joy in helping them.
Bob Howarth:Yes, I did. That's true. That is the
Jamie Howarth:basic. That is the basis of of that feeling or what drives us. So even though you were helping them as a team and it made you feel included and it made you feel Involved in something great, even at six or seven years old, if you don't realize that that's what it is. It, it really does show that even, you know, subconsciously not knowing at a, at a young kid age that you just really liked to help. Right. And it was really fun to, to be able to participate with that. You knew you were doing something good.
Bob Howarth:Yeah. It drew you in. Yeah. If they were standing there with. A garden hose. The green line. Yeah. It wouldn't have been nearly as exciting. Yeah. But when they were flowing from a deck gun and you're watching these thousand gallons of water a minute, hit the trees and break the branches off and it, it draws you right in and then. You learn that helping is fun.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, and like from Kendall's perspective, he was, he's a multi generational firefighter. But for you and me, the story is a little different. So, I actually kind of envy Kendall some because he was raised getting to know all of those things and getting to see that. Now, my parents were really hard workers. And so I did get to see what it was like to have hardworking parents that did have a sense of service, even though it wasn't in the fire department. I was raised. With, with my beliefs and my social interactions is that we work hard. We contribute. We don't take away from society that we are, you know, we're always being a part of the greater good. So even though I don't have a firefighter in my background, it, I still think it had the same principles as I was growing up that made me drawn to either the police department or the fire department. And just a little sidebar, my niece is looking into, to joining, she's actually a volunteer now, in the same jurisdiction that I work at, and she's looking to apply at the same jurisdiction that I work at next year, Actually this year. This year. Yeah, the next test that they have. So, uh, we might have a multi generational firefighter in our family soon. Uh, anyway, we got off topic. We're going back to, but that is tradition, right? Like that goes back to multi generational firefighters. It was tradition for you to be in the fire service. It was tradition for you to follow in the footsteps of, uh, of your parent. And we still are seeing multi generational firefighters to this day. I did notice recently that we are actually seeing a lot more daughters in our jurisdiction that are becoming uh, multi generational. I
Bob Howarth:completely agree there.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, I was thinking about that the other day, and that right there tells you that the culture is changing.
Bob Howarth:Right, the tide is turning. It is.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, and they are I just love them. I love these daughters. We have a generational firefighter. That's a female. She might have more than one in this class. And in the previous class, we had a couple, um, and they are fierce and they are getting it. Yeah. And I love it.
Bob Howarth:And I've also seen that when you have a multi generational fire service, that the people that come in knowing the job. tend to take the initial training and the initial actions towards becoming that firefighter a little more seriously because they already know. They know what it's going to be like once they're done. Some people come in and are scared to death. going through the academy because they don't know what tomorrow is going to bring.
Jamie Howarth:Oh, I had to talk to my dad on the phone every day when I left and he called me on the phone in the morning to make sure that I went back. Um, you know, I was 20 years old. It was scary and I really didn't know much about the fire service, but I did have one person in the academy that just kind of stood by me and gave me a lot of support. He was in my class and, you know, we're still good friends to this day. He's moved on to a different department, but, um, you know, we're still in contact. And I really give my dad the credit for me, for where I am today. Sure. For me sticking through it, for me showing up every day. He wanted to see me get to that finish line. And once I made it to that first finish line, it was like, there was nothing to stop me, I was going to keep going. And it really made me feel good when I would have my promotional ceremonies. that he would be there. And I know how proud he was of that. Now it did scare him to, um, being a first generation firefighter, he didn't know what to expect either. Like your family doesn't know what to expect and getting that support from them could also be different. I was fortunate, but he also would come to the firehouse and he liked to speak to the drivers and he always wanted to the drivers, especially when I promoted to officer. Um, because they would be supplying me with water and he felt like that was super important and somebody who's not in the fire service. He recognizes that that is a really important job. Yeah, that's our lifeline. Um, so even though we do not come from traditional fire department families. I do think that we come from backgrounds. That gives us service and gives us that that pride that duty that honor and that has carried over into to us succeeding in the fire service. And, you know, you don't have to be a generational firefighter to do well in this job. No, not at all. You just have to have grit and commitment and you just don't give up. And it really is perseverance. And there's so many people out there these days that can absolutely do this job, and I want to see them do it. So don't be discouraged if you're, if you don't have a background in firefighting, or if you don't have a background in, you know, multi generational firefighters. Definitely get in there, um, and you might fall in love with it. I hope that I did.
Bob Howarth:It doesn't hurt to try. Right. It really doesn't. And if you don't succeed. For whatever reason, that doesn't necessarily mean you're a failure. Right. It just means that you're not successful at this particular time or with this particular skill. You can try again.
Jamie Howarth:Right.
Bob Howarth:There's a lot of things you can do. Well,
Jamie Howarth:you miss a hundred of the shots you don't take. Maybe it isn't a job for you. But if you're interested, go out and get it. Right. Anyway, okay. I feel like we've covered tradition really well, right? We've kind of discussed the background and what What tradition is about? I think we should shift to culture, and actually I think your three quarter boot Example is is both right? That's where the line starts to get a little fuzzy and we're not sure We're not really sure where that line kind of blurs. For example, you talk about it being tradition I do think three quarter boots were traditional. I do have a question. Did you wear three quarter boots?
Bob Howarth:I wore three quarter boots Both as a volunteer and very, very limited as a career firefighter, not on structural fires. We had three quarter boots that we could use on brush fires. We had three quarter boots that we could use for pump outs, etc. But we did not wear them on structural or vehicle fires.
Jamie Howarth:Okay. They
Bob Howarth:were more of a, quote unquote, rain
Jamie Howarth:boot.
Bob Howarth:So
Jamie Howarth:when you got in 40 years ago, we had already moved on.
Bob Howarth:We did.
Jamie Howarth:To an extent
Bob Howarth:we, we were moving on. When I first became a firefighter as a volunteer, I was issued bunker pants, but there were still a lot of firefighters who were older that were wearing three quarter boots.
Jamie Howarth:Okay, that is a perfect lead into the cultural thing about it because they had the ability to wear the, the more modern turnout pants, right? But they still chose to wear three quarter boots. Sure. Sure. What is the reason behind that? Right? Why did they choose that? Did it mean it's because they felt comfortable? They didn't believe in it. I you know, you guys are so weak these days You can wear the three quarter boots in and go in and you don't need that shit Like you just don't need it, you know, right? So I do think that's that's where we get hindered when it comes to a cultural thing I think the number one thing that hinders us in the cultural aspect does come down to safety. If you think about some of the cultural things that we hold on to, and then we call it in the name of tradition, it really is a safety issue. So, three quarter boots right? Turnout pants were better. They were starting to be issued across the, uh, American Fire Service, and people, if you were lucky, you know, and you were able to get those, that, that they were becoming more Available, but people were just so set in their ways, so they didn't want to accept that, that new way or that new culture that was coming forward. They thought it would take away from it, but it hasn't taken away from the fire service at all. It's enhanced it.
Bob Howarth:I need an even better example. Volunteer fire department was purchasing a new engine not too long after I came in, and it was going to be the first enclosed engine. In in that company.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:And there was a battle over air conditioning, and we thought we should have air conditioning in the crew compartment, but there was a lot of people who said, I didn't come into fire service to be cool. I don't care. We don't need air conditioning. You know, that's That's really starting to move here
Jamie Howarth:now. I love that air conditioning.
Bob Howarth:I'm not sure they would sell you a fire engine now without air conditioning. You know, I mean, it's we
Jamie Howarth:put them on a service in the summer.
Bob Howarth:Correct.
Jamie Howarth:When we don't have air conditioning because it is a safety thing. Yep. Um, that's interesting. I've never heard that one before. Yeah. Some other things that I think are cultural that we hold on to the name of tradition. And we've alluded to this before is it's usually related to hazing. For example, you're to be seen and not heard, or we're going to stand you in a corner and. And that hazing is, is hindering progress. So it was done to me and it was done to my, you know, my boss's boss. And that's just the tradition of how we, we break them in. But all it does is just separate you from them. And it separates you as a team. And you're supposed to be a high functioning team going to work. So for me, it's like, that is a cultural change that could improve. our team's performance. Um, and I also don't think, and you'll be able to, to expand on this, did we really think about it as a team sport back in the day, like we do now? Like, was it really like everybody's together and you know, the buddy system and stuff like that? Or was it kind of more of a free for all?
Bob Howarth:So I think you can look at that two ways. If you go back in the history of the fire service, Back to the days of Ben Franklin and the days of the insurance plaques on the outside of the houses as the fire department came into your community and your house was on fire and you had a Philadelphia fire insurance plaque. Okay, well, we're going to take care of that. But If you had a different fire, uh, insurance plaque, they were going to wait for some other person to come and fight your fire. And when you talk about teams, they would literally get in fistfights between the two of them because one team thought they were better than the other.
Jamie Howarth:Oh, that actually happened. Not the fistfight part. Well, yes, actually the fistfight part, uh, when I volunteered.
Bob Howarth:Yes.
Jamie Howarth:Um, but it was more, it was not about plaques. It was getting the fire first.
Bob Howarth:So that. But that is how teams have also evolved.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:They were teams back then, but the team now has evolved into a different outcome. The outcome back then was we're going to get that fire. The outcome now is we're going to fight that fire and control it. And we're going to do it together. Efficient.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, absolutely. So I do think it is like an efficiency thing, but. We, we all want to go get the fire, right? And that's going to come down to tactical discipline, which we are going to talk about in another episode. Um, it's probably going to be a longer episode. I do think, though, that with that comes the responsibility of, of being able to say, okay, well, you know what, we weren't 1st in and that's not our job to be 1st in this time. Our job is to be 2nd or 3rd in. This is the best one. Our job is to be ret. How many wants to be written until it's time to be read.
Bob Howarth:That's exactly right. Right. That's so many times.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. So in that situation, fires blown out of the house, you get there, you're assigned rip prior to arrival. It's your job to be read. Right. It's not your job to get into a fistfight in the front yard. And that's a cultural thing that has evolved. For me, I've seen that evolve where people are exercising that tactical discipline more. And that is actually, I feel, contributing to Putting out the fires faster and safer, and it's better for the community and better for occupants if they're trapped because of the way that we are approaching the fires now.
Bob Howarth:So we're approaching them now. The efficiency really comes into importance because of the changes in what is burning.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:30 years ago. The house burned and it took, well, 15, 16, 17 minutes in some cases, the studies are showing before it went to flasher. Now we're talking about three to four minutes.
Jamie Howarth:This is a sidebar, but Jackson is behind you, trying to lick stuff out of the sink. Our dog is in the sink making noise, but I don't want to stop him right now because we're in the middle of recording. Uh, yes, absolutely, but then you have to evolve. Yes, because what's burning is evolving and the systems are evolving and also we're closer depending on what situation you have role firefighting. Do you have a higher and do you not have a higher in like the way that you approach it? And in my career lifetime, a cultural change that was really hard for us was switching from I'm going to save the NEM standard to S. O. G. S. Yes, for more than half of my career and half of my time as an officer right in the front seat. Uh, we relayed on, we, we relied on that first two engine as that officer, as people were coming in, they were arriving on location and then you were assigning them,
Bob Howarth:right? It was completely command driven.
Jamie Howarth:Yes, completely command driven, which studies have shown over time and time again, line of duty death reports that community based firefighting and the structures that are mostly related to community based the SOGs is what is most effective and in the end result of putting the fire out quickly, efficiently and safely. And one of the things that lives is like, okay, well, that's not as much fun, you know, um, and then that's where your culture comes in because you have to recognize that change. And what has changed, like you said, with, uh, with the construction materials, right? With the materials that we have to, we have to put forth the effort to make the change because we are in an inherently dangerous job. Absolutely. You
Bob Howarth:can't make it completely.
Jamie Howarth:You could do the right thing and still get killed.
Bob Howarth:It doesn't even matter. You'll have people say, well, you could fight every fire from outside and you wouldn't, well, even if you did that, you still have to get there. There's always something that's not going to be safe about it.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:It will be reduced, but there's always something, there will be an injury no matter what.
Jamie Howarth:Right. And then it does come down to what your mission is. And I think that's where, like, the staying outside part is, that doesn't help the community, that's not beneficial to the community, that doesn't support our mission. However, how we do approach the fire, um, and learning fire behavior. Um, that's something that was not learned back in the day either the way that we have learned it. And a lot of this stuff comes from line of duty death reports. It does. And then we're still doing the same things and making the same mistakes and not learning from them because Of tradition or culture, which is it? What do you think? I
Bob Howarth:think it's culture,
Jamie Howarth:right?
Bob Howarth:I think it's, but we have to, you have to also look at it from a person's knowledge of the change in what has happened is what helps that culture of more efficient, things like that. They have to know that these items have changed. You can still see. If you look at a YouTube video or an article and you skip past the article, skip past the video, go to the comments and look at the people. Who you can tell from their picture. They've been around for more than 40 years.
Jamie Howarth:Okay.
Bob Howarth:And they're making a comment that scientifically with all the studies you can show doesn't make sense. And
Jamie Howarth:they are so set in their ways to
Bob Howarth:and they're, they're loud. They're This is the way and you guys are screwing this up. But when you really look at it, it's like, I'm not screwing this up. I'm doing it the way it should be done.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. Um, exactly. And that I have experienced this switching the SOGs when I volunteered, that is what we did was SOG. So I had been exposed to it, but a lot of the people that I worked with had not been exposed to the SOG driven, um, the tactical approach. And the problem with that is, is Remember, man, people were so set, and like, we don't want to be like other jurisdictions. We don't want to be like them. We're losing our identity. We're losing who we are. Um, no, they're moving ahead, and we are being left behind. And luckily, we did get, I'm saying this the best way I can, an administration and that could see, that had the experience with the SOGs. and was able to bring a new fresh perspective. I think that's the best way to put it. Yeah,
Bob Howarth:a different perspective.
Jamie Howarth:Right, because I'm not saying, I think all of our administrations that I've had in my career have given us something positive, have moved the fire department forward, but this is the biggest change that I have seen in my career. that really people were so just against.
Bob Howarth:Yeah. So I think that a lot of the new perspective is not necessarily fresh. It's that it's different. Somebody else is already doing that SOP somewhere. Somebody else we're learning from their mistakes and we're learning from what they do good. And we bring it in and say, there's a different way. What about this? And the people that followed the fire service. understand that happens. The people that come to this as a job don't always understand that.
Jamie Howarth:If people want to understand why we do what we do, start reading Law and Duty Death Report. Sure. If they want to understand why we're making changes, why we have tactical discipline, and why we are not using tradition in the name of those behaviors, remember if you go back to what the definition is culture is a behavior. Yes. Where the tradition is pride, duty, and honor. And again, that's where I think we're blurring the line with, well, we don't want to be their identity. It's not saying that you're going to have their identity. I don't know how many people in the American fire service When somebody leaves the station buys them and anybody who knows that reference knows that that's a thing. So, but that is a tradition, right? That's a, that is something that is done, a ritual that is not negative. That is not, that is something that makes people feel included and it just makes them feel like they were a part of the crew. So to give a little background on it for people who don't know. Um, when you pie someone, when they leave the station, let's say they get transferred or they get promoted
Bob Howarth:or retire
Jamie Howarth:or retire. Yeah. In a lot of cases, it's done as a way to say, like, we're really going to miss you. We really love working with you. And it is something to as a send off. I think that's the best way to say it. Like, it's just a, it's a good send off. So that is a tradition that we have. And that's not hindering. It's not hindering progress. That is not hindering progress.
Bob Howarth:Okay, I agree with you. You
Jamie Howarth:know what you're going to say. No,
Bob Howarth:you don't.
Jamie Howarth:Okay.
Bob Howarth:But you just said that that's a send off. And it's done because they quote unquote like you. That's, that's why it's done. Respect you. Yeah, respect like.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:But we have 180 degree different when you come into the fire service. When you
Jamie Howarth:leave
Bob Howarth:the fire service, they hit you with an aluminum pie pan with whipped cream. That's the pie
Jamie Howarth:when you leave. Yeah.
Bob Howarth:But when you come in, you can be exposed to hazing. You could be exposed to, in some cases, sexual assault. You can be exposed to a lot of things. But that person coming in thinks that they're being exposed to that because that's how they're accepted. That's how they're liked. It's very different than the leave in. So they don't
Jamie Howarth:speak up because, um, they don't want to be not included as a part of the team.
Bob Howarth:Or they don't want to be looked at as, you're not part of the team, so I'm not going to give you my knowledge.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, that's more of like the be seen, not heard, and leaving them out. Our energy needs to be put into it really does like we need to change our mindset that our energy should be into training and should be into promoting that team approach. And again, if this this, if you don't understand, go back and listen to our. Our last podcast, two podcasts ago, I guess, empowerment versus entitlement, because I do think there's a fine line there and you can still be, let's say hard on people or, you know, go through the process of learning to trust them and then trust you without making them feel completely, you know, just not a part of the team. And that's, that's an important thing to learn that you learn with experience, that you learn with research, that you learn with understanding how people's brains work. Um, And again, this job is not for everyone. So
Bob Howarth:and you talked about we should be relying on training. We should be relying on different things than taking somebody to a backboard.
Jamie Howarth:Well, cooking together. I'm a big fan of dinners together. Lunch doesn't always work out because it's just too much going on during the day. But our traditions and our culture should be the tradition together. Of training should be the culture of training should be the the approach of. inclusivity as far as this person was assigned to me and I'm their field trainer and I'm going to take pride in making sure that they are the best that they can be and I'm going to pour myself into them and when they leave me, I know that I made the fire service better by what I gave them and how they were able to perform when they left my crew.
Bob Howarth:So I want to talk about training for a because I think this is something that's important of As you've come up through the fire service, have you ever been given a training scenario, a training task, something that you knew you were doing it right, but no matter what you were doing, you weren't going to win?
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:And that is something that we have to get away from. Every scenario should be winnable. Everything you do should be winnable. It doesn't mean that you will win, it just means that it should be winnable. And that was something that I had to learn in the police academy. That I really wish I knew when I was training recruiters because every scenario you go into in the police academy was winnable and a lot of people lost them. But not
Jamie Howarth:everybody gets a trophy. But I guess you're not changing it to make it harder and harder and harder so that they don't win. The scenario is the scenario and either you succeed or you don't succeed. Which I do think we do now, at least in my department, with like a competency evaluation. It's the same end game for everybody. And either you are performing to the level that's expected of you, or you're not, but I, I do want to reserve that conversation for another podcast episode when we get into training into, recruits and, and that standard, because I think we could do a whole podcast episode on that. So when it comes down to. The grid of it. I really just think we need to focus more on thinking to yourself when you are doing something thinking. Is that the way we're doing it? Because that's the way it's always been done. And that is like one way that you can figure out if it is hindering progress. If it's a cultural thing or traditional thing is well, why are you wearing those three quarter boots? Well, that's the way it's always been done.
Bob Howarth:Why are you wearing? There's still people out there that are doing this. They're doing it in the right situations, but they're still doing it. Watch the videos. Watch the, News stories. Watch all that. There are still people that are wearing the orange fireball gloves. They're using them now because they're waterproof and they can work with the hoses and stuff and not get their hands wet. But that was a firefighting glove years ago and they proved how many people got burned. I
Jamie Howarth:had no idea.
Bob Howarth:They proved how many people got burned because it didn't let the steam out of the glove. So,
Jamie Howarth:I've never, I've seen plenty of people. We have them
Bob Howarth:for
Jamie Howarth:picking up lines and your hands not getting what
Bob Howarth:that was a firefighting glove at one time that we had to evolve away from.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah,
Bob Howarth:that's
Jamie Howarth:interesting. But, you know, saying to yourself, well, that's just the way that it's always been done. That's just the way I've always done it. For me, we have a choice between male and female pants. And when I came into the department again, I was 20. So I was like, I don't know if for the males pants, they come him, but the women's don't come hemmed. And they're just not made for women's bodies. Like you have to get them altered one way or another. Um, so for 18, almost 19 years, I wore men's pants.
Bob Howarth:Sure, that's what was available.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, and they did not fit me right.
Bob Howarth:No.
Jamie Howarth:They just did not fit right. But I just I started it because I was in the academy and I didn't want to take the time to get them hemmed. I just was focusing on so much other stuff and then I just did it forever. And why did I do it? Cause that's the way it's always been done. So I had another female, this is the same for my coat, my, um, my turnout code. I was wearing men's turnout coats, and that's just the way I've always done it. That's the way you see it, like the coats are longer, that's the tradition of the fire service. But when I had to get down to duck walk, or when I would put it on, because of my shape, it was, it was not as easy for me to work. So I had to start evolving. And I got a shorter coat that was made for females, it was so much nicer, so much easier to work in. It just fit better. It's cut
Bob Howarth:differently. It fits differently.
Jamie Howarth:So I did do that. More than three years ago or four years ago. But more recently, I did have another female talk me into trying the women's pants. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I can go back to it. It was too much. I was doing it for this way for so long. And it actually turns out that I do like them better.
Bob Howarth:Right. You just have to take a little more time to get them hemmed and chased for what you want.
Jamie Howarth:Let's think about it on a broader scale, right? Don't knock it before you try it. Don't knock the new gloves that are better until you try it. Don't knock, you know, wearing your waist belt on your SCBA. Uh, it's so much harder on my shoulders and my back if I don't have the waist belt on and putting it on correctly So like don't knock it Put it on correctly and see the difference in the longevity of your back and your shoulders by wearing it that way shorter coat versus longer coat now the only thing I can't get on board with And this is going to come out another podcast that i'm on as a guest. That's a copperman state fireman the only thing I can't get on board with is the european style helmet, right? Because I really do feel like First of all, the helmet does its job. It's not a safety issue.
Bob Howarth:Ultimately, it's a better helmet, but I'm with you. I can't get on board with it either.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. Why is that, right? And I think the reason is because I do think that is a traditional thing. And when you look at it, that's an American firefighter. When you look at that style helmet. And there's even helmets that are brimmed differently for different areas in the United States. So, I just think that is. something that is traditional, but it's not like the three quarter boots where people are getting hurt because they're wearing it or they're not able to go and perform their job. It's still tried and true to this day. It's still performs exceptionally well. It does do its job. And it is something that is an American firefighter, you know, that, that is an identifier for us.
Bob Howarth:So why don't you think people want to go to that helmet just out of curiosity. It's a resistance to what
Jamie Howarth:I think it's an identity issue
Bob Howarth:and a resistance to change.
Jamie Howarth:Well, yes, but I, I don't think I can do it.
Bob Howarth:I don't think I could do it either. But the point that I'm going to make here is it's resistance to change the fire service. You hear over and over again, uh, 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress. We are the, fire service is the most change resistant you will ever find, yet we have more firefighters that invent different tools and make changes than any other
Jamie Howarth:company out there. The
Bob Howarth:helmet has evolved.
Jamie Howarth:It has. evolved. But for me, uh, I don't know if I would, again, I haven't tried it, don't knock it till you try it. I'm basically eating my own words here.
Bob Howarth:I've never tried one, but I can tell you I've watched a lot of videos with no one around me, so they didn't know I was watching them.
Jamie Howarth:They're
Bob Howarth:showing the European fire helmets. And they're showing masking up and they're showing how it works and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, man, that's really cool. It works really well. It
Jamie Howarth:works really great in Europe.
Bob Howarth:Yeah,
Jamie Howarth:but I know. I mean, some of those countries don't even have host lines. Yeah. Right. Like Iceland.
Bob Howarth:Yeah,
Jamie Howarth:like they're putting on the European helmet and they don't even,
Bob Howarth:I mean, they have them, but they have such so few fire departments in Iceland. When we were there, we looked at that.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, I'm sorry. Somebody's from Iceland and I ended up listening to this.
Bob Howarth:It's not that it's a bad fire service, it's just that they don't have the same fire problem we do.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, and I just think it's one thing that in that situation, if the problem isn't broke, you don't need to fix it. But with the three quarter boot specifically, It was broke. Well, and the reason is why, because What we were building with was changing. It was burning hot. It was burning faster.
Bob Howarth:Well, that's not, I hate to hear
Jamie Howarth:it
Bob Howarth:was burning hotter. You hear that over and over and over again.
Jamie Howarth:It's a different fuel. It's
Bob Howarth:a different fuel. Here
Jamie Howarth:comes the fire. That's
Bob Howarth:the head. Here comes the fire investigator part of it. The fire is not hotter today than it was in 1900. The fire is the same temperature, a birthday candle. And a house are the same temperature, but it's the amount of heat that these fuels are putting out that has changed. That's where it really comes from. But if it's
Jamie Howarth:the amount of heat by definition, is that hotter?
Bob Howarth:No, definitely hotter is a temperature.
Jamie Howarth:Okay. But if it's burning more,
Bob Howarth:you have a greater heat release rate.
Jamie Howarth:Which makes it
Bob Howarth:more energy, not hotter, more energy. I don't
Jamie Howarth:know. I've been in fires that were hotter than others.
Bob Howarth:They're all the same. If it's the same color flame, it's the same exact temperature.
Jamie Howarth:But they're hotter than others because it's burning. You can have different
Bob Howarth:fuels that burn different things. Because
Jamie Howarth:the fuel is burning different. So, um, I would, I do think it depends on the structure.
Bob Howarth:But it, it's. It's definitely the heat release rate that hurts us more now than anything to do with temperature.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, that makes sense.
Bob Howarth:Yeah.
Jamie Howarth:Okay. So I feel like we've given a good amount for our listeners to kind of chew on and discuss again. not everybody is gonna agree with our perspectives. I think sometimes we don't even agree with each other's perspective. It's just the perspective. We
Bob Howarth:don't always agree with each other's perspectives.
Jamie Howarth:But I think that's healthy.
Bob Howarth:Yeah,
Jamie Howarth:I think it's healthy and I do think that's how we do more move forward. Somebody sees things differently than I do and has a different perspective on it, and I go, man, I never thought about it that way. I just never thought about it that way. I didn't think about the heat release thing until you just said it. So it, it definitely is something that we want our listeners to go back to, that we want them to discuss and really think about why we do what we do. Like, what is the why behind our, our behaviors? our traditions, um, the culture that we have, the equipment that we wear, the apparatus that we ride, we ride on and what drives the policy change. I think that they're going to find that a lot of our policy changes are driven by learning from, from previous, line of duty deaths.
Bob Howarth:We learn from our mistakes. It's absolutely true.
Jamie Howarth:And the thing is the mistakes, while not intentional, it's just, we're faced with new things. Why do you just come from stuff where we're like, oh man, none of us knew that that was going to do that. And then we have to learn from that and not die in vain
Bob Howarth:and the actual death by fire products has decreased. We still have line of duty deaths, but we're not burning to death, the same number of firefighters now than we did in the 50s because. Of exactly what we've done. We've learned.
Jamie Howarth:But we are also just as, if not more, aggressive. Yes. We've just evolved.
Bob Howarth:Yes, absolutely.
Jamie Howarth:And I, for one, really like to be aggressive. Like, I, I'm all in for that. Right. But I also wanted to be smart. So, I think that's it. Okay. Uh, thank you for tuning in. We really appreciate it. Thank you,
Bob Howarth:everybody.
Jamie Howarth:We hope that you get something out of this and you're able to have thought provoking discussions and, I'm sorry that we're a couple of days late. We've, I've been working a lot, but, uh, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. So thanks again for listening in. We'll see you soon.
Bob Howarth:Take care