Ignition Leadership Podcast
Join hosts, veteran firefighters and leadership coaches, as they engage with experts, explore successful strategies, and share inspiring stories from the frontlines.
Ignition Leadership Podcast
Episode 3- Hard Conversations
In this episode of the Ignition Leadership Podcast, hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth introduce their new co-host, Kendall Hammack, who comes from a multi-generational firefighter family. They discuss the significance of leadership, mentorship, and clear communication in the fire service. The trio explores the importance of having hard conversations to manage both positive and negative behaviors, emphasizing customer service, safety, and team cohesion. They delve into strategies for handling difficult discussions, such as setting clear expectations, providing feedback, and rewarding positive behavior. The episode underscores the necessity of understanding why certain policies exist and fostering a respectful work environment both internally and externally.
Welcome to ignition leadership podcast! Leading with fire and building with purpose. All information and opinions are of the hosts and guests and are not affiliated with any organization. Here are your hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth and Kendall Hammack
Jamie Howarth:Hi listeners. This is Jamie Howarth.
Bob Howarth:This is Bob Howarth.
Jamie Howarth:And we are really excited to introduce you to Kendall who is going to be joining us for quite a few of our podcasts. He's got a lot going on with his family and various stuff. We're happy to have him when he's able. Kendall, I'm. I'm so excited to be able to talk to you in like this capacity because I feel like we have so many like hour long conversations about these very things and I think it's really important that we're able to get the message out just from various experience. Our listeners know that Bob and I are first generation firefighters but you actually are a multi generational firefighter. Your father was a firefighter, correct? And you decided to follow in his career path, so I guess nothing really scared you in the firehouse while you were growing up?
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. From a child, man. Like this is exactly what I wanted to do. It was made very clear to my mom and dad that this was the path that I was headed down. And I'm like, super ecstatic that I still get to live this dream out.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. I can't believe how long it's been. And we've known our career paths have always crossed. We are always. either ended up at the same station or just involved in projects, or we've just always stayed close. I feel like through the years, I think one of the reasons for that is because we have a similar leadership style. I know that Bob has known you probably since you were born. Is that right?
Bob Howarth:Not quite. He was born, but pretty darn close. I worked with his dad for a while. So I remember him coming to the firehouse as a young kid and long before he could ever be a firefighter. So it's been a little while.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yeah, for sure, man. Like It's crazy to think as a kid, you show up at the firehouse and more often than not, we were leaving a game or my mom was bringing us there for discipline.
Bob Howarth:I can actually remember that more than once where your dad had to have a talk with you. You and your brother.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yes, man. I have very fond memories of the host tower at that station. Yeah, man, I think I still have a little bit of chills when I walk in there, it's that culture, that environment is what led me to want to pursue this as a career. I was fortunate to have it in my home, like I got to see the benefit of it, the reward of it. And yeah, like I'm still a dumbfounded, like I do this for a career. This is, it's not work because I love it. Like this career, man it's the best job in the world, I think.
Jamie Howarth:Oh, I completely agree. I, every time I think about how many years I have on it, it just baffles me how quickly it went by. So if you could fill our listeners in on a little bit about your career, just some of your, I see your face. How about we start with like how many years you have on a few different assignments that you've had. You've also worked your way up to Lieutenant through the ranks. You were a firefighter, a driver. You've also been assigned to the training academies. Do you have a lot of vast diverse experience? If you could just go over kind of those things to give you a little direction there.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yeah, for sure. So obviously as everyone does, I went through the Academy, came out as a two, worked in the first battalion. And then as a two, they moved me to South County, which living in that county, I had never experienced that area unless I was going for a sports event. So you talk about a complete culture shock for me, man. I was like. Okay. This is what I'm getting into.
Jamie Howarth:Yes. So for our listeners, the first battalion is much more condensed with people has a lot more diversity. It's definitely faster paced a lot more calls and South County is much slower, rural, less condensed with people, less diverse.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:That's culture shock for me was. Everyone told me that I was going to South County, and then when I realized that I was deep in the South County, when I started getting detailed, I was like, I never even knew this place existed and this is that I've lived for 18 years, right?
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Okay.
Bob Howarth:I remember in fire school telling people that we're going to a certain station in South County that you drive down this road until you think you're lost and then go three more miles and the fire station will be right there. And I think that pretty much describes South County.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:My first time I got detailed, my lieutenant printed out directions on MapQuest for me in all seriousness. And I still got lost. Like I had to call the captain of the station I was going to. And I was like, man. This is the road I was at, and how do I get to you from here?
Bob Howarth:And about three more miles. You were
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:there. Yeah, like it spent some time as a two man went to the academy for a recruit class. And by the grace of God, I had some really good mentors there. You're talking senior people in the department who charted this course for me that I wasn't even prepared for. I didn't even think of, I was just happy being a two. And then they were like, man, we see like your potential, you have to pursue something more. So promoted to a three fell in love with that art, like being a pump operator and like it's constantly problem solving. It truly is. It's an art. And to be a good pump operator, man, like when I promoted to a three, there were still a lot of senior pump operators. Who were just masters of the art. So you aspire to be that you see that in front of you, you see the way these guys handle their app and women handle that apparatus, the way they run calls, like you aspire to be that. So as a three, I was assigned to a station and the captain there was like, Hey, same thing, which is weird. It's Hey, I see something in you. Have you ever thought about this? Being an officer. Never thought of it in my career, man. Like I'm still, like I said earlier, I'm still dumbfounded that I do this as a career, like it, I feel like I'm a 10 year old, like Christmas, Christmas is coming. You know what I mean? Like this, I love this, but same thing. Someone pushed me out of my comfort zone. Was able to promote to Lieutenant and still love the job. There's not a day that goes by that I want to do anything different and here I am to this day, still doing it. So
Jamie Howarth:I love to hear this cause you can hear just the passion and excitement in your voice. And how long have you been on your current department? And you work for a large metropolitan department.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:16 years.
Jamie Howarth:16 years. And you still have you can tell you just still have that fire. I am actually really glad that you bought up out of your comfort zone because today's topic is actually related to being outside of your comfort zone. And what we're going to be talking about today is having those hard conversations. And I think it relates both in problem employees, but also in employees that you want to push to be better and to grow into what you believe they're capable of doing. So the example that you just gave was promoting to lieutenant, that's still a hard conversation to have it requires you to really point out someone's attributes and people, especially people in this job, they're not comfortable with hearing. The positive stuff like it's just they don't like to be put out there. They just come to work to do their job and even those conversations can be uncomfortable, but they still have to be had so that So that we can grow people and improve them whether it is going through and getting a promotion or whether it's because they are a toxic employee where we need to get them back in line so that they're just not infecting the entire crew. battalion department. So I think it's important that we do push people out of their comfort zone.
Bob Howarth:I think though, you have to remember that, and Kendall, I think you may agree with this based upon what you just said about becoming an officer. Before you ever have a hard conversation, You have to learn how to accept a hard conversation too. You said you didn't want to be a lieutenant. You didn't want to be an officer. You never thought about that. But somebody saw that and pushed you out of your comfort zone. And at first, I'm assuming that it was hard for you to take that in. And digest it. And that experience helps you later on have a hard conversation with somebody else who you see the same thing.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yeah, for sure. I think the way I'm wired is I'm more comfortable being told where I need to improve than being told where I'm good. If that makes sense. Like someone, if someone wants to praise me, I shut down. But if someone tells me, hey, you really need to improve at this. I'm all for that. So go back to what you said, man. Yeah I wholeheartedly agree with that, Bob.
Jamie Howarth:And that's displaying humility and humbleness for the job. And I think it's great to have that approach. But at the same time, because I believe a lot of us are wired that way. That we also have to learn to accept what our strengths are, focus on what our weaknesses are. And it is a balance. I do feel especially in an officer position and you're a Lieutenant now. Bob, as we spoke about before, he retired as a battalion chief and I'm currently a battalion chief and we've all worked our way through the ranks. So we've experienced. I feel like the, one of the most challenging part of our jobs is people. And we've explained this in previous episodes where, you have a bunch of different cultures and backgrounds coming together to try and create a solid group. That's a high functioning team. And there are some people who are high performers that do extremely well. And in some cases, they almost get entitled. And then you have to have a conversation with them because while they are high performers, they still have to follow the rules and they can't treat other people like crap. And I have found through my career, this is something that I know I feel like everybody is going to relate to. You'll have a high performer who does really well and they just have this attitude or this like holier than thou attitude or whatever. And the response that you always hear from people is that's just the way they are. And that. I hate that. The way that is said, because not everybody is treated fairly or the same when it comes to that's just the way they are. They're allowing them to get away with that behavior because they're a higher performer. And those who still meet the standard, but are not the top performer in the group. If they had the same behavior, they would be held accountable. And it's harder to have that conversation with somebody who is a higher performer. I feel.
Bob Howarth:Yes. I would agree with that.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. And
Bob Howarth:so wait, before you go on one thing about that, you said people like to say that's just the way they are.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Bob Howarth:Maybe we can change some of that by, instead of saying that's just the way they are, start reminding people by saying that's just the way we let them be.
Jamie Howarth:Oh, that's a good one. Because that's exactly what we're doing. It's not just how they are. It's that we keep letting them be that way.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I think sometimes too, like we all get so focused on doing a good job that we forget that doing a good job includes customer service.
Speaker 8:Yes. 100%. So
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:the disposition, like we can put a fire out and save the house, but our mentality towards that homeowner afterwards, or even medical calls as well, the way we handle those individuals on scene goes a lot further. Then the treatment sometimes, if that makes sense.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, that goes back to a cultural thing, right? One thing that drives me crazy is where we're standing in front of somebody's house that just burned down. They've lost everything. And we take a picture in front of the house with our crew smiling. And the homeowner is looking at us smiling and. Excited and they literally just lost everything in a house fire. And that is something that has been a culture thing. I've actually noticed on social media that we have gotten away from it, at least in my department they are going back to the firehouse and just having a group photo in front of the fire engine. I think that's much more acceptable. I do think it is important to take the photos to remember your crew and just the nights that we had and the camaraderie and just coming together and doing a great job. There's a time and a place for it, and I can tell you this is a topic that I had to have a conversation with somebody on because I just felt it was so distasteful, but it was so widely accepted in the fire service and I knew it was going to be uncomfortable conversation. I knew it was not going to be accepted As easily as I had hoped but at the end of the day My focus was on the mission of the fire department and my focus was on ensuring that we are giving that top level customer service and it's such an easy fix to do it back at the firehouse versus On the fire ground I sent Bob this, like I have it here. I printed it out. I read this article in Forbes magazine about Stop Playing Nice, Leadership Power Plays to Crush Toxic Employees, which is a really dramatic title, by the way, for what it actually is. So I almost didn't want to read it, but I do want to give them credit for it since it it was their leadership article, but there's some stuff that they mention in it. I think the number one thing for me that it comes down to when you have difficult conversations is to ensure that you are setting clear expectations. We want to make sure that we are having clear expectations for our employees so that they are all on the same page. They know exactly what you expect of them. And they are following the rules and regulations that were set forth by the organization. And it's hard to expect people to follow what is expected of them if you do not lay it out for them. And I think that's where we start with the hard conversations is laying out our expectations. So I do want to ask each of you not to put you too much on the spot. What is one thing that you expect from one of your employees? Bob?
Bob Howarth:It's really pretty easy. The number one thing that I expect from anybody that works with me or for me is clear, open, and respectable communication. There is a multitude of issues that can be completely avoided with toxic employees or non toxic employees simply by having clear communication. Good communication skills and speaking to each other in a respectful manner so that you can be empathetic of How that person feels and they can be empathetic of you having to enforce and have that hard conversation That would be the number one thing that I would say is communication. It really is the key
Jamie Howarth:And that's not the first time you're having, if you're setting expectations it shouldn't be the first time you're having an uncomfortable conversation with them if you do need to bring them back into the boundary zone. You should have already been having hard conversations with them throughout because setting expectations and ensuring that people are operating within the rules and regulations, that still is a hard conversation to have.
Bob Howarth:Right.
Jamie Howarth:So just set, the first time that you bring them into your office because they violated a rule or regulation, it shouldn't be the first time you're having a difficult conversation with them, positive or negative. Both are difficult just by human nature.
Bob Howarth:So just give you an example of that. And you talk about complying with the regulations, the rules, the policies, et cetera. In private industry where I am now, we have an expectation that is given to us that we fill our timesheets out every day. If your timesheet doesn't get filled out because you didn't get home until 9 o'clock at night, the next day, it's not a hard conversation to discipline somebody for not doing that. It's a hard conversation to say, hey, can you explain to me why it's not been done? And when they say, I worked a 14 hour day. I didn't get back to nine o'clock at night. I have it pulled up on my computer. I'm doing it right now. Did they violate a policy? Did they violate a rule? Did they? Yes, but the intent of that rule is being complied with right now. You're not going to get that unless you have communication, and you're right. You have to have some hard conversations beforehand.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, definitely, and give them the benefit of the doubt. You should always be asking why somebody did something. To understand their side of the story. And that falls under the unwilling, unknowing, or unable. And in this case, or the case that you gave he was unable. He was out working for 14 hours. Yeah, he's tired. Yeah, it's not that he was trying to avoid his duty. It was an extenuating circumstance that required him to put it in for the next day. And there is a balance between just Cutthroat going after your employees and having that open communication. So I do think that's great I'm Kendall you work down at the training Academy. So I know for sure Expectations have been clearly set in your career for Personnel both in that setting and then of course in your crew setting or even when you were a pop operator I feel like drivers are also The team leader or the, even though they don't have the bugles, I always feel like everybody looks at the driver. Also they're the ones that kind of help them through problems. They don't want to always take it to the officer and they help to mentor and guide. So what is an expectation that you have? And you can have more than one. If you have it for different settings, like one in the recruit training and then one in the field.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:So I think for me, I'm big on customer service. Like for me, man, when you leave. the station. Everyone has to be treated with the utmost level of respect. And I think if you drive that home outside of the station, eventually it plays into your accents within the station when you can get everybody on the same accord treating everyone with the same level of respect. And I think you guys talked about in a previous episode. Mr. Bob is from the country. I'm not from the country, but if we can treat each other with respect within the station, then where we came from, doesn't really matter because equally we're in the same position and we're trying to do the same thing.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, I love that.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Absolutely. So for me, Jamie, to say it is customer service and the level of respect for one another. When you leave there, it doesn't matter what call it is. Everyone expects it from the cat in a tree to the pediatric right then and there is the worst time in that individual's life. We're there to solve the problem. We're there to be pleasant. We're there to be nice. We're there to do exactly what we can to make that situation better.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. And I also love that you talk about internal and external customers with that. I believe that we focus, we do have high focus on external customers, the community. But then when we get back to the station, and I think maybe it's because we do live together like a family unit, that we forget that same respect needs to be had in the firehouse as well. It doesn't just stop at the door. It's important to continue that. And that mutual respect is going to help your team when they go out in the field to run those calls, for sure.
Bob Howarth:Yeah, that's both internal and external are very important. You can't have good customer service. to just one side. Correct.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, for sure. So gosh, you guys came up with two really good ones. I should've gone first. I actually I just redid my expectations or re reinforce them with my battalion recently. And there was various ones that were included in there. They touched upon both of those things, communication On customer service, of course, safety. I feel like if I had to pick one outside of those two, it would be to have tactical discipline and follow. Your policies and procedures. I feel like the number one thing for me and my position that really causes safety issues and causes issues between teams, things that can definitely get you in trouble is not having tactical discipline. And I guess discipline Even not just tactically, right? Discipline in the firehouse not always answering back to somebody if they irritate you, or ensuring that you are following what you're supposed to. The policies and procedures are put in place for a reason. If you don't understand the why behind it, then that officer needs to have a conversation with them explaining the why. I think it's so important for people to understand where it came from, how it got put into place. I think it helps them to follow it. Better that helps him to troubleshoot, but having that discipline even in the firehouse with your peers is so important de escalating before Stuff gets out of control. I think it's really important now. I do understand that we are all human And it is so hard to manage our emotions and our feelings, especially when you're in high stress situations where you just came back from a structure fire with people trapped and everybody's hungry and they're tired. And, maybe the result didn't turn out the way that we had hoped. And then we still have to have discipline to not take it out on the people that work with us. And to give people grace. I know I just read a book Let Them by Mel Robbins, and I, you have read it also Kendall? Yeah. I gotta tell you, it's completely changed how I feel like I'm so much more patient now. I don't, I'm not quick. The first thing that comes to my mind now is just let them, and then let me. And I think that it is so important in the setting that we work, where When something is done that really you got to pick your battles and then am I really going to pick this battle? Or do I just let them? And I do think it just depends on what it is If they carry out something, that's just not the way that you would do it, but there's nothing wrong with it Let's say a training they're learning and they're trying to carry out a training and they want to do it in a specific way If it's not hurting anything and it is helpful, like just let them do it. It doesn't have to be done the way that you do it all the time. There's a lot of different ways to do it. And we spoke about this in our last episode where a lot of times officers are jumping in to do it their way instead of just letting them work through it. And so that's just one example I can think of that is, is where we need to just let them work through it. But at the same time, if they are having bad behaviors and are not following the rules and it's causing disruption on the teams, then we need to have straightforward conversations with them. And this is something I'm working with my officers on. This year is having those hard conversations setting expectations, and I can tell when I'm having the hard conversations about having hard conversations, it's uncomfortable, and they're uncomfortable doing it because they don't have practice at it. So I just think that Through this article that they had in Forbes magazine, I'm going to read through just a couple of things, and I can't wait to hear both your thoughts on this. One of the things that two of the things that they state is to call them out and have a no tolerance policy. You're the boss. Use your voice because others are listening and watching. Don't like toxic behavior. Slide confront them early and directly use specific examples. I notice you interrupted your teammate multiple times during the meeting. That behavior undermines collaboration. It won't be tolerated. Now, what I love about this statement is they say, This is what you did. What it does, it disrupts the team. The behavior undermines collaboration. So what you did, why it's not appropriate, and that it won't be tolerated. What do you guys think about that as a, as an approach if you have an employee who is bucking and is not working with the team and needs to be brought back in line?
Bob Howarth:Kendall, you take this one first.
Jamie Howarth:Put you on the spot.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:It's all good. Honestly to go back to what you were saying earlier, Jamie, a lot of times as a three, if that fire two was acting up, I tried to speak to that individual before it even got to the officer. So that type of behavior wouldn't even be acceptable because I've already had that conversation with that individual. When I was a pump operator, I felt like if it got to my officer, then one, I fail because I truly feel like the pump operator is the informal leader. Like you cover the floor and if it gets to our door, then, I appreciate you trying to buffer it. But
Jamie Howarth:we agree. Yeah.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:To go back to that statement. I like it. I think it, it clearly defines what's expected and what's not going to be tolerated. The only thing, and for people that don't know, my wife is a mental health clinician. Like she, she challenges me in ways that I've never even thought of. I
Jamie Howarth:love to hear the stuff that you tell me about her thought process.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:She social works me all the time. But she says something the other day that like blew my mind. We, I had to have an uncomfortable conversation and we say uncomfortable conversation at work, but truly we have these conversations at home. You have to have them with your spouse. You have to have them with your kids. You have to have them with family members. So I had to have an uncomfortable conversation with that individual that's named after me. All right. And Michelle afterwards, she's like you did beautiful. You are articulating everything. Like he got the point. She goes, the only thing that I would tell you is, statistics show, you need to say three good things for every one bad thing that you tell them. I was like, for real? I've been failing because I don't do that. So I think the one thing to add to that, Jamie is like, yeah you painted the expectation. You stopped the behavior where it was, but I have to give them something. Because if they're only gonna hear the negative stuff, I have to give them something positive. He did tell me I was trash at this, but I was good at mopping the floors. You know what I mean? They need that.
Jamie Howarth:You literally. So that was gonna be my next thing after.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I'll see myself out.
Jamie Howarth:You did great. I'm like, this is perfect, right? Because that is exactly right. That's the full circle. And that is what they discuss in this article is also about rewarding those positive contributions I recently had a conversation with one of my officers and it was like, listen, you have been doing so well. You've been forward thinking. You've been setting expectations. I see your confidence is improving. And then you picked this battle that's not worth picking and you're, it's it's moving you backwards and is it really worth it? And to help them see hey, you are moving in a positive direction. Do we really want to go down this road? And have it negatively affect your team, your mental health, and then the organization as a whole. So I do, I didn't know the three things, so thank you to Michelle, Kendall's wife for giving us that awesome information. And it clearly does state that, and all the research that I've done does say that you have to uplift your team also. You can't just drill them into the ground and expect them to show up to work and work for you. And work for the organization. So I think that's really such a good, that's a good point to drive home.
Bob Howarth:So Kendall, couple into that three things for every one bad thing. Three good for every one bad. I remember many years ago taking the instructor evaluator course. And one of the things that they really pushed was you tell somebody something good they did. Then tell somebody something that needs to be corrected then end with telling them something else good They did and you have a bigger impact on them. Remembering all of it, correct?
Jamie Howarth:What do they call that? It's like a Sandwich or something like I don't know. I've heard it I always thought of it as like an Oreo cookie like you got like the good stuff on the outside and then you know Yeah,
Bob Howarth:that's important. You have to make sure that they know they're not always Doing wrong, you tell them the statement that you read simply can be summed up by saying you have that conversation and you explain the issue, you explain the effect of the issue, you explain why it's an issue, and then you explain the correction for the issue and that's it, it's pretty simple in steps, but it's not always easy to say,
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I think the one thing that's really important to is, The things that we're correcting, or the things that we have to have the uncomfortable conversations about, we have to make sure that we're modeling as well. Literally going into my next thing. Keep going, Kendall. You're killing it.
Jamie Howarth:I'll see myself out. You're killing it. Keep going.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:But seriously if, alright, so take my kids, for instance. If I come home and I am constantly on my kids about the condition of their room, But then they walk into my room and it's poor, there's no substance behind what I'm telling them because I'm not modeling it right. And we've all had people like that just come and yell, you yelling at me about not having my shirt tucked in, but your shirt not tucked in, make it make sense. So I think, yes, we're there to have the uncomfortable conversations, but we're also there to model the correct behavior so the uncomfortable conversations have more validity to them. If that makes sense.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. And lead with values, right? You want to lead with those values that has been set forth by the mission, by the organization and by your own values as a leader and setting the example and look, I am definitely guilty of this. I can think of recent incidents where I have, I've just let something go on for too long and I didn't follow my own advice, and I gotta tell you, I like beat myself up for it, because I know that I could have handled it differently or better. And I think that's one thing that we do have to realize is in dealing with these difficult situations, especially as a supervisor, is that we have to give ourselves some grace. We're human too, and I also think it's important that we follow through with those discussions, and Not just say you did this and it broke the policy. The end. I don't think that's going to change the behavior. I think it's just going to make them jaded. Instead of saying, this is the policy, this is why it's a policy, this is why it should be followed. You were explained to me why you didn't follow it, right? We want to go back to that unwilling, unknowing, unable and if it's something where they are unwilling to follow it, then we need to get to the bottom of it and then progressive discipline needs to happen.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I think the cool thing is like right now, I think we're in a big shift. I remember as a kid, The adult walked in, the adult told you to do something. You did it because they told you to. Now, like as a supervisor, or even as a husband Michelle is big on the why. And my kids are too, and this generation that's coming through the fire schools and that you're working alongside are big on the whys. And I could not wrap my head around it. And I would tell them, because I said so. And Michelle would look at me, that doesn't register with me. And the same thing with the people that are working with us, we have to give them the why, because if you just tell them it says in Appendix A, this is the rule, and you're being violated by this how and why does that apply to them? Because they need to see the practical application behind it,
Bob Howarth:and there is a place for, because I told you to do it, or because I said so, but that has to be followed up later with the why.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Yeah, for sure.
Bob Howarth:If it's. A life safety issue if it's something like that, because I said so is appropriate now, it needs to be done right now, but then afterwards, there's no reason you can't revisit that and explain the why.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, totally. We have and that's usually on the fire ground, right? We operate in emergency and non emergency situations. And if something, we have that paramilitary structure so that we do get things done on the fire ground or on an emergency call, EMS call. Where we do operate as a high functioning team and have the best outcome for the community. There have been times where I didn't understand why something was done. And I have had to go back to my officer and say hey we did it. I just really don't understand why we did it. And I always, it was always something I would never forget. Like when they would tell me why. And I'm like, Oh, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. It's usually a really good reason. And not everything is written into the rules and regulations. Otherwise, SOGs and rules and regs, they would be. And you have to have that practical application that also is followed up with experience. So it's important we started this out at the beginning, Kendall, where you said having mentors, it's important to have those mentors and it's important to understand the why behind it as a leader and as a follower for followership. And even as leaders, we're still followers. I do followership with my chain of command, with The ops chief and our shift commander who is a rank above me. I there are, sometimes there are things that I don't agree with, but that is the direction we are heading. And I'm fortunate enough that my supervisor does take the time out to tell me the why. And it really makes a big difference to me. And then whether I agree with it or not, at least I understand why we're doing it. And then that's the ship and that's the way that we're going to direct it.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I appreciate the supervisor that gives you the why. Yeah. Because I'm really uncomfortable asking for it. Just from the way I was raised, asking why was almost seen as disrespectful.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah.
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:So even now, at 36 years old, I am really uncomfortable asking why.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah. It's like backtalking almost, right?
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:Exactly. And that's how I perceived it.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, and our culture is, the culture now, as you explained as people are being raised, these new generations, they really feed off of the why, which I think is very healthy. It's a very healthy way to be. I think it makes us better. It's just, it's the way that you go about it. It's the way that you go about it as a leader and doing it in a way that rewards positive behavior, but also manages toxic behavior. And sets those expectations.
Bob Howarth:One of the things that the Y does is the Y also drives change. Because when you have somebody that asks why, and you explain why. In their mind, they may be thinking of a why can't I make it better? So without that, why? And just for years, there were certain old wives tales that were said in the fire service, in fire investigation, in whatever you were doing. Those got changed because somebody asked why, and somebody was. Proactive enough to explain to them why so I think that there is a really good reason for the why even though Some of us may not like it all the time. There's a good reason behind it.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, there's gonna be There's always gonna be time that you don't like it and that's just the way that it is and that goes in a good followership as well. We are going to finish up this episode with cause we could talk about this for hours and hours. We're going to finish up this episode with one. recommendation that you have for somebody that works underneath of you, maybe a firefighter, an officer, depending what position you're in. What is a piece of advice that you would give them for having hard conversations?
Bob Howarth:So I'll take this one. One of the best pieces of advice I could give someone for having hard conversation is it's going to be twofold. Be honest in the conversation and be reflective of how your conversation is affecting that other person. If you're honest and you're concerned about how it's affecting them, hard conversations become a lot easier.
Jamie Howarth:Yep, definitely. I agree. Do you want me to go next, Kendall, or are you,
Kendall Hammack, Sr.:I'll do it. It's all good. I think it goes back to what they say from really good presenters. I think it was John Maxwell and 21 irrefutable laws of leadership, I believe it was, when he said he never pictured trying to address every individual in the room. He tried to target an audience when he spoke. When you have the uncomfortable conversation, you have to know the individual that you're speaking to. And certain individuals are going to receive messages differently. So having a good gauge and having that relationship with that individual prior to having an uncomfortable conversation will make it 10 times easier for you. So don't be holier than thou and get to know these individuals. That way, when you have the conversation with them, they know it's coming from a genuine place rather than. Yeah. authentic and authoritative figure. If that makes sense.
Jamie Howarth:Yeah, definitely. That's really great advice. I love the know your audience. Some people need tougher love than others. They receive it and some people. Just need a little bit more. Just a different approach. So I think both of those answers are really great. going third is always a struggle with you too. So if I had to give advice, I would say to stay on topic. If you have a problem that you're trying to address and you're trying to have a difficult conversation and this is true in life too, right? With your spouse or with your kids, don't bring the whole kitchen sink into it. It gets overwhelming and they're going to shut down because I know that's how I am. If you're addressing an issue, you address that issue and you focus on that issue and how to correct it. And if you are doing it, if you're doing it the right way, those other things in the kitchen sink should have already been dealt with. They shouldn't be brought back up because you've already had those hard conversations with them about those various things. So just be sure to stay on target. Again, restate your clear expectations and then and just don't overwhelm them because bringing too much stuff into it becomes overwhelming and they will for sure shut down. So thank you both. This was great. Kendall was so great to have you on. I can't wait to have you on again.
Bob Howarth:Yeah. Looking forward to it with you, Kendall. I
Jamie Howarth:know it's nice to have three people on here to have a conversation for sure. I have to work on my scheduling. That's where my issue is. Cause I, poor Kendall. I'm like, Hey My bad,
Bob Howarth:have the hard conversation with her, tell her, you need to figure out my schedule too.
Jamie Howarth:He's right. Yeah. So listeners, thank you so much. We appreciate you of course. And we hope that you will have thoughtful conversations back at the firehouse with your peers and that you're able to pass some information on. We look forward to next time. See you in two weeks!